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Post by gulfman on Jun 9, 2014 11:21:56 GMT -5
Nice teaching Cat, But, in my opinion, it raises more questions...  Jesus did not say that if you´re not baptized you are not saved (Mark 16:16). I believe we should do it - just because Jesus did it and commanded it it´s good enough for me ! But, I don´t see it in the scriptures that if you don´t do it you will not be saved. Also is fair to say that nowhere in the Bible we see somebody baptizing using the formula "in The Name of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit". Not even one disciple or apostle. It also seems fair to me to think about the reason of baptism. I´m not questioning, I´m thinking about. If we just do it without any revelation of the act what are we doing?? Regarding the confession prayer, I think we can see it clearly in Romans 10:9,10. |
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Post by warrior on Jun 9, 2014 12:34:53 GMT -5
Cat, I was trying to agree with what you were saying and also registering my disquiet that some 'churches' actually make following Jesus harder than it should be. Baptism should be freely available and we can do it ourselves in a pool or hot tub; there is no monopoly. I don't think it right that churches deny believers bread and wine. They should explain their point of view but not deny it. It is a personal choice but again there is no monopoly and it can be done at home in the family (no bishop's certificate required).
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Post by Saltandlight007 on Jun 9, 2014 12:58:24 GMT -5
Gulfman, I didn't get the impression that Francis was saying that we are not saved if we are not baptised, but that we should be baptised as soon as possible after professing that 'Jesus is Lord' if we are going to call ourselves Christians because that's what is written in Scripture. He seems to imply that we can over-complicate things, instead of being 'like children' in our obedience / attitude. I have to agree with him (and I'm not excluding myself).
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Post by warrior on Jun 10, 2014 1:27:20 GMT -5
I agree. Baptism is the ideal route. We do know that the criminal on the cross was saved without being baptised but he didn't really have an option.
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Post by CAT on Jun 10, 2014 1:47:34 GMT -5
Warrior, thank you for clarifying - whew!  Gulfman, Rom 10:9-10 = very good point! Obviously, I think we all agree that Jesus' work on the cross is the only thing that saves us. And that those who believe should get baptized. So we are trying to answer this question, right?: Someone believes in Jesus and repents. They never get around to getting baptized even though they had opportunity. They die. Will they go to Heaven? Hmmm... I was trying to think of a good answer but it's not coming to me - hehe. I like what SaltAndLight said: "'Knowing in part' (1 Cor 13:9) is a good thing I believe - it's humbling (pride being our greatest enemy). " Can I raise more questions?  I was reading John 3 yesterday... How do you interpret John 3:5? "...unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." |
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Post by Saltandlight007 on Jun 10, 2014 3:35:48 GMT -5
John 3:5 seems a good example of how bible verses are better interpreted in context of all Scripture. As Warrior pointed out, we know that the thief on the cross was saved without baptism.
I wonder whether the issue is one of disobedience more than anything (once a person knows the right thing to do, but doesn't do it). The other issue is that in not being baptised, genuineness of the verbal commitment made can come under scrutiny if one is not willing to complete the process through outward display (a bit like not going ahead with a marriage ceremony once someone has asked a person to marry them). Also, Jesus said “the kingdom of God is in your midst (Luke 17:21)". So, perhaps doubt (about the right thing to do due to lack of simple faith as a child) and disobedience create obstacles to entering the Kingdom of God here on earth.
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Post by warrior on Jun 11, 2014 16:09:05 GMT -5
I agree. We can also look at this as truly repenting to die to old self and become a new creature - spirit. That's when we change and start to walk the walk; when following Christ dominates our thoughts and actions.
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Post by James on Jun 11, 2014 23:13:21 GMT -5
Ya, I thought of the thief on the cross next to Jesus too. I think I'll skip the 'baptism discussion'. I think you guys have covered it pretty well. I would like to say tho ... I always find great comfort and assurance when I think of these words of Jesus ... "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment,
but HAS ALREADY passed out of death into life". John 6:47 ...'just sayin'. |
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Post by gulfman on Jun 12, 2014 3:48:48 GMT -5
Gulfman, I didn't get the impression that Francis was saying that we are not saved if we are not baptised, but that we should be baptised as soon as possible after professing that 'Jesus is Lord' if we are going to call ourselves Christians because that's what is written in Scripture. He seems to imply that we can over-complicate things, instead of being 'like children' in our obedience / attitude. I have to agree with him (and I'm not excluding myself).It´s true that sometimes we over-complicate things. But for somebody that is getting the first real contact with Christ and just ask you that question ("when am I save?"), what would you answer? |
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Post by warrior on Jun 12, 2014 15:34:21 GMT -5
Watched this due to the Afghans at our church who have accepted Christ. As for your question, watch it decide you are glad you are not judging such things. I'm glad as I don't know but Jesus does |
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Post by warrior on Jun 14, 2014 2:25:55 GMT -5
Coming back to the question. James is right. Ours is a gospel of grace (undeserved favour). We cannot earn our salvation. We should beware of becoming Galatians. The actions are not prerequisites but are motivated by the outworking of belief. At what point do we get undeserved favour? We have to trust God and live our belief with love. If we start to worry about it we lose our peace and start to try to become deserving. We should be guided by the Holy Spirit.
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Post by gulfman on Jun 14, 2014 5:52:51 GMT -5
Coming back to the question. James is right. Ours is a gospel of grace (undeserved favour). We cannot earn our salvation. We should beware of becoming Galatians. The actions are not prerequisites but are motivated by the outworking of belief. At what point do we get undeserved favour? We have to trust God and live our belief with love. If we start to worry about it we lose our peace and start to try to become deserving. We should be guided by the Holy Spirit. Of course we can not earn our salvation. Of course we have by the grace of God, and there is nothing we can had to it. The redemptive sacrifice of Jesus Christ is more than enough, and there is nothing we can do to "perfect it" because it´s already perfect. But I do believe that there are some prerequisites we must fulfill - such has repent, accept Him has our Lord and Saviour and follow Him. If that was not the case all the world would be automatically safe and I don´t believe that. I believe it´s normal that the question would raise to someone that is not a Christian and starts caring about it. People ask me that lots of time. |
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Post by warrior on Jun 14, 2014 6:14:05 GMT -5
I apologise if I am unclear. I do not believe in justification by works which is condemned in Galatians. Yes, repentance is required and faith in Jesus Christ who has saved us. However, I do believe in works as the fruit of repentance and faith. My point is that if we accept the grace of God the rest would flow from it. If it did not then we would only be paying lip service. It has to come the right way round; no carts in front of horses. I hope that clears it up.
It is an important issue because it is a common misconception in wider society and can evidenced to varying degrees in some churches and sects.
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Post by gulfman on Jun 14, 2014 6:30:54 GMT -5
Amen to that! |
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Post by CAT on Jul 17, 2014 18:49:46 GMT -5
Well... God has blown my mind. When I heard that Torben would visit Singapore I REALLY REALLY wanted to go. I thanked God that if it was His will, He would work out the details. Naturally, cost is one issue. And as I shared 2 months ago, that was taken care of just days after hearing abt the Singapore event. Another major issue is food. Can't eat out. How would I eat there?? I didn't care if I had to fast the whole time, I HAD to go. But I can't exactly impose a fast on my 8yo son (who must go with me.) Well... I was chatting with the contact person who will be hosting Torben (I had mentioned to her before my desire to receive prayer for our food allergies) last night abt where to stay, etc, and she says, "As to your child needs, you can have your food prepared at my home. I have a full time house helper she cook too." WHAT?!?!?! Is that amazing or what? Not only that, I've found an inexpensive place to stay that *appears* to be walking distance from her house. @_@ Wow. I'd say God is giving me the go-ahead for this trip. |
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Jesus did not say that if you´re not baptized you are not saved (Mark 16:16). I believe we should do it - just because Jesus did it and commanded it it´s good enough for me ! 
I was reading John 3 yesterday... How do you interpret John 3:5?