an honest question

[stormgal]

I hope that this topic doesn't offend anyone, so kindly please (I'm even begging you - for whoever comes across these notes, don't get offended, please I am begging you in front of our Lord! )

Now let me ask ya'll a question. And by the way, this isn't about anyone in particular, I really do have this question for my own educational purposes:

Does Matthew 5:38-39 prove that Christians shouldn't own firearms? The text reads this way:


38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.


Personally, I do not agree with the text's application with regards to firearms. Although I do not possess any firearms myself, I am not against responsible, mentally sane and law-abiding Christians who do. My reasoning is this: As far as the text above is concerned, revenge is not the same as self protection. I cannot emphasize that enough:

I strongly believe that the "other cheek" text can be misapplied under many different sets of circumstances.

For instance, if someone were to attempt to rape any of you ladies out there, would you simply lie down and let him (them) do so for fear of not exercising revenge and going against that text? Me personally, you can bet your bottom dollar that I would try my best to fight them off - sure, I don't have a firearm, but I do have knives, a baseball bat, a batton and many more things around the house that I can use (and that my nanny State of NY cannot ban).

Now, I don't consider my actions to be vengeful. I would consider them as self protection - which is very different from seeking revenge. In fact, Exodus 22:2 shows this clearly:

If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed;

To seek revenge with a firearm would actually be a crime in the United States - even in places where gun laws are lax.

Take for instance, the example above. If I were to allow a person to hurt me, and not do anything about it, but then later, I would feel anger and would take a weapon and hunt them down and shoot them, I would be tried for second degree assault or murder. However, if I hurt them because they hurt me while *in the act*, I would be vindicated by the government and even by our Lord and Savior.

My point is that I don't think that owning firearms is necessarily a bad thing, however, I do feel that our motives with them - as with anything else (yes, including bats and knives) can become un-Christlike.

In conclusion, I feel that it is important to rightly divide the scripture by applying passages in their proper context, and by differentiating between the intents between a violent unlawful assailant and a responsible individual and legitimate authority.

Thank you, now I will get off my soap box. ;D

[hearingGod]

[chocchip7]

I believe God led me to Mt 5:38-39 in regard to this issue of guns. Unfortunately my stand on it has resulted in many people turning their backs on me. I have come under much attack for my stand.

I believe in these verses, Jesus is speaking of not retaliating, not repaying evil for evil. If we are to carry a weapon of any sort as protection, then we have an intent to use it if necessary.

In previous verses, Jesus commands us not to commit adultery. Do we apply conditions to this as well? Is it ok to sleep with my best friends husband coz they had a fight and she has walked out the door in anger & told him she wants a divorce.....and then I go to comfort him but wind up having sex with him......wouldn't this still be adultery? Or can I justify it by saying, "well she did ask for a divorce"??

[paulholmes]

Alright, I'm just going to argue this from an appeal to your motherly instinct. If your son were attacked and stabbed in front of your house and the attacker then stated that now he was going to kill your son, would it be wrong to take your gun out of your purse and point it at him, command him to stop, and if he then proceeded to attempt to carry out his threat, would you be disobeying Jesus command to not take "personal" (against your person) vengeance and save your son by shooting the attacker?

I guess I'm stating by that long run-on sentence that Jesus was talking about taking personal vengeance for a wrong done to you personally. But that doesn't mean you don't put locks and alarms on your house to protect from intruders (or even keep a vicious Rotweiller! -- or perhaps a gun )

The fact is there are murderous and violent thugs who are deterred by the knowledge that someone might have the means to protect themselves.

By the way I don't own a gun but if I had a family I might think of having one.

And finally, as I said to you once in another venue, if you were a Quaker that refused to serve in the army and thought it was a sin to have means of self-defense, I'd still respect you because I know you love and serve the Lord. It's sad that some would get so passionate about this that they would turn their backs on you -- tells me their hearts not in the right place.

[paulholmes]

P.S. I was directing my reply to chocchip7. I somehow stumbled into this on her reply and thought she'd started the topic.

[chocchip7]

As a mother, I would want to take my gun & shoot the attacker......that is what my flesh would want to do. But is that what God would desire I do? Would shooting my attacker make me any better than him? Who decides if I live or die? Who decides if my child lives or dies? Who decides if the attacker lives or dies? If I am a child of God, whose control do I come under? Whose protection do I come under?

I am very fortunate because I do live in a country where there are strict gun laws. These laws were brought about after a couple of mass shootings where many innocent people lost their lives. It has worked for our country.

I have no choice but to trust God for my safety & for the safety of my son. This doesn't just apply to an attack in our home. It also applies when we step outside our door. We are in danger of drunk drivers, speeding drivers, there is an array of threats outside our front door. Do I shoot the drunk driver who jumps the kerb & slams into a member of my family? Where does it end?

We pray for God's protection for those we love. We say we hide under the shadow of His wing, we say our steps are ordered by Him, we say we want to be Christlike. Do these statements come with conditions? Are we really in His hands? Do we trust Him enough with the lives of our family? What does it mean when Jesus says, "do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul"?

If I allowed myself to think of all the terrible things that could happen, I would become crippled with fear. If I say nothing can come against me unless God allows it, then I have to trust God with every outcome. I know that if anything bad happened to my son, I would not want to live. His life, my life, the lives of all those I love are in God's hands.....not mine or anyone else.

Which one holding the gun is innocent?

[chocchip7]

PS the root of the problem isn't about wanting a gun for protection. The root of the problem is the fear of not being in control. And the fear is borne from pride. Forgive me.....I am speaking what no one wants to hear.

[hearingGod]

a powerful testimony that forever impressed me was of a girlfriend of mine in CA finding herself in a dark alley w/ a bunch of guys w/ quite potent discernment of a spirit of 'rape' in the midst. she spoke "Jesus" and it's as if they had seen something very intimidating escorting her, and high-tailed it out of there.

in having animals to defend.... we've trapped & shot countless raccoon, possum etc. that don't obey all our prayers for protection over our farm. i've noticed a chicken missing and found feathery evidence of it's demise... and i took that learning experience and shored up things better. when we hear coyotes howling we go outside and go 'boom'.... we don't sit inside and pray (LOL). the wild beasts becoming a problem in the end times.... well, we recognize that & are ready.

now learning and experiencing the power in binding and loosing..... identifying what spirits are in operation, in conjunction w/ the name above all names JESUS.... i'm excited that my spiritual arsenal is getting filled up. i do expect that if i discern 'murder' on a would-be attacker that binding it from operation is the real weapon.

but if in doing so and things do not stop and continue to threaten...like the wild animals.... i might be found praying while holding a 'bang bang' machine. America was founded by a fight.... slaves were freed by violence.... God used Godly men and heathens to accomplish it. in the end, if we are clean b4 God.... and obedient to His Holy Spirit....every man answers for himself. and if one hears in his spirit to do one thing opposite of another.... it's only obedience that wins. we know we cannot sit here and say all who fought for the USA freedoms robbed life from God & therefore knew Him not....and then sit here and enjoy not paying taxes to britain (ha ha, andy)...some things must just happen & there is a cost we cannot know til' later.

so to be led only by His spirit, what He shows us in His Word and by our personal convictions is obedience. i will do what i need to do when i need to do it... i will bend as a reed in all things, just as Abraham had to trust even up until the last minute regarding his son.

sure.... new revelation comes or corrections to our worldview by discussing things the Lord sends us these through all means.... but when arguments rage... guilt trips....condemnations etc., come w/ info... those are the real traps we need to look out for.... the enemy doesn't want us to have identity, confidence etc. in anything.... but God is raising us up to stand even if we are handed over. we must stand and be confident even if one believes in holding a gun & another doesn't and we all must discern if fear, pride, condemnation etc. are the motivators or if the Holy Spirit is.

..my (¢) (¢)

[James]

Stormgal, I believe that your final paragraph is absolutely correct ... where you say
" "In conclusion, I feel that it is important to rightly divide the scripture by applying passages in their proper context, and by differentiating between the intents ..."
- Take just 5 minutes to view this woman's testimony before congress .. and see if you don't agree with the famous words once uttered by Statesman Edwin Burke " The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". James

[chocchip7]

I didn't ask for this. I didn't want this. It's been my greatest battle. It's much easier being sweet & agreeable. It's easier to close my eyes coz this isn't my war. The cost has been high, much higher than I ever thought it could be.

For the record, I love the USA. I carry a flag in my bedroom, a sticker on my car. The only man I ever loved was an American. I weep for your country more than I weep for my own. When it's the 4th July, I take a flag to work. I don't do that on Australia Day.

I don't have the strength or the courage to do this. This kind of battle is for tough warriors. Bye, and don't worry I won't add to the drama any more than I already have.
xoxox

[hearingGod]

it's no big deal chip.... believe and stand as He has led you & DON'T CARE about what anyone else thinks
condemnation, offense etc....bind those up & be free!

[James]

Hey chips...
No need to feel bad or apologize. I admire you for stating your beliefs. There are wonderful Godly Christians on both sides of the question. .. I know .. from personal experience .. cuz I've been on both sides. I was drafted into the Viet Nam war at 19. I had a terrible time figuring out just what my Christian convictions were. I finally decided I was a "conscientious objector" to the war (tho not completely resolved about it) and served as a medic. ... and got blasted by people on both sides of the issue. Later I did come to a different scriptural understanding and belief about if and when killing is justified. It was a sensitive and soul searching issue for sure. .. but we got to go with what our conscience is before the Lord right?

Anyway, I just want you to know that I DO understand your beliefs about this issue as a woman of God .. and respect you for them. Love you sis James

[stormgal]

First of all, before anything -

I want to let Chip know that I love her very much. We may not always agree with each other, but this is how I feel about her. I know she was put in my life for a special purpose (I just haven't figured it out yet )


The problem that I find with blaming assault weapons for murder is that the responsibility is delegated to the item but hardly ever to the actual person. But why? It was the person who committed the murder not the gun itself. The gun was just used in the process.

If you find yourself wanting to commit suicide or murder, (I rebuke you evil spirits) then you have the emotional and spiritual problem and that's the root we need to look at - not the gun makers. We need to analyze why people behave the way that they do - not how many guns are floating around.

HearingGod and her husband are two perfect examples of people who wouldn't use their firearms to commit mass murder, I'm sure. Yet people like them who are responsible are boxed in with the murderers and serial killers. The mentality is that if you have a gun, then you are a danger to society. I don't think so! But if people have emotional problems and demons all up in them, then yes, they are a danger to society!

At the garden of Eden - back when God had asked Adam not to partake of the fruit, but Adam did so anyway. What was Adam's excuse? He said, "The woman that you gave me made me sin".

Eve said, "The serpent made me do it".

Adam and Even both blamed objects/ people for their own behaviors - neither one of them even had the audacity to apologize. Point is, the blame was placed on a serpent and on a woman. (Ask yourself, would it had made sense to ban women and serpents?(

My question is, why can't people take responsibility for their own behaviors and stop blaming other people and items? That is exactly what boggles my mind!

In thinking that they're so smart, atheists today conclude that God should have never put up any tree in the garden. (Ban the tree mentality). They say that God is to blame for allowing Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit. (Atheists take anger with God because He should have banned the tree - never placed it there to begin with - as these atheists say in so many words - especially on youtube)

But I personally don't see it that way: I think the tree had nothing to do with humanities downfall - it was Adam's own disobedience and his choice to be disobedient that caused in part the mess we're living in today. But people will always have a problem with that - but you see, that's what happens when we live in a society that forgoes personal responsibility and emphasizes instant gratification.

[buildthefarm]

i didnt read all these responses but trust theyve been respectful. from a scriptural standpoint i would quote to you like 22:36 where Jesus tells the disciples if you dont have a sword sell you cloak and go buy one. or somewhere in kings or chronicals where it discusses the spring time when all the men of Isreal go off to war like ever year and thats how it is. from a political standpoint id point to the confiscation of the firearms of the Jews by hitler prior to there mass murder and mention that they arent the only government that has dissarmed its people only to turn around and kill them in mass. in fact more people died that way between 1900 and 2000 than died in war and of heart attacks combined and you could prolly make that list longer if you want to research it. but as Christians we all have to find out what Gods says to do. and honestly if walking in close relationship with God He can and will save you from violence. for instance Jesus was attacked to be killed several times before He was actually hung on the cross. same with peter. peter walked through a prison wall and Jesus walked through an angry mob. paul had all the doors fall off the prison and the chains fall off and decided to stay and evangelize the prison guard. so honestly i dont think theres any Biblical reason to own or not own a gun any more than theres a Biblical reason to own or not own a frog. i think if God says though away all your guns then its sin not to and if God says buy you a gun its sin not to and He has a purpose for us all thats higher than our understanding. in the case of the german Jews in the hollicost it was a horrible thing that happened to them but God used that evil thing for His pupose to fullfill His prophecy that they would be planted back on the land and no one would ever uproot them again. so if God lets us all get disarmed and murdered we will still be His children and the evil done to us will still get punished in the end and we will be with Him and He will use our death for the good of His purpose. knowing that is it really worth debating?

[warrior]

Ouch this is a hot topic and close to the heart of my 'colonial cousins'. We don't have many guns here. They are not intrinsically evil. They are neutral but the wisdom of easy access to so many folks who do not know God, at the mercy of forces they do not see, is questionable. We don't need to turn scripture into laws. It has been tried and doesn't work. The corrupt find a way around it. We find fault in the law as you have and invent more laws.
We are Christians. We have an indwelling of the living God. We need to pray for the nation and its leaders. The nation has to be conformed to the point where they accept the freedom that their responsible, God fearing, forefathers gave them and use that freedom in a Godly way. I would suggest praying for your neighborhood. Claim it. Declare and proclaim. Bless your neighbors, especially the violent types. Then start declaring the gospel and laying hands on the sick.
OK getting off my soapbox.